.26 Twists of Fate

[00:00:00] This is the end of Sign While At This Rengord. Please now turn it over for the second

[00:00:05] sign. Welcome to All Our Listeners to another episode of The Inspiration Room. I am your host,

[00:00:19] Piyali, along with my co-host, Amber and we are really, really happy to be here for another

[00:00:26] episode. It's been a while in the middle of everything I've had a call, Amber has visited about

[00:00:32] 50,000 different states for work and finally we get to reunite again which is always really exciting.

[00:00:41] Can I just say every single guest that we've had on the show so far makes the Inspiration Room

[00:00:45] what it is and I just love being able to, well we love being able to meet different people and

[00:00:52] no two stories so far have been the same which is what Inspiration Room is all about.

[00:00:57] Everybody has their own journey and today I'm really pleased to welcome a very close friend of

[00:01:03] Amber's Rachel Parsons who has lived her own journey and will be speaking to us about

[00:01:10] career change and having children and while that sounds very straightforward it actually isn't

[00:01:17] because Rachel has gone through her own ups and downs and is here to tell the tale herself so welcome

[00:01:24] Rachel really lovely to have you on the show. Thanks Piyali, thanks Amber I'm glad to be here.

[00:01:30] Wonderful so Rachel I don't know anything about you Rachel's known you for 20 plus, sorry Amber's

[00:01:38] for 20 plus here and I want to know everything that I'm going to need like little bits of info here

[00:01:45] and there so tell me a little bit about you, where are you from and what do you do?

[00:01:51] Yes sure so I am originally from Warren Michigan which is about five to be Detroit area

[00:01:57] and I lived and did Michigan for the first 25 years of my life and then moved to New York to be

[00:02:04] a high school teacher so I did that to New York City so I did that for a long time, eight years

[00:02:09] full-time and then I've been teaching part-time on and off ever since so I definitely identify as

[00:02:16] a teacher I love working with teenagers and then I left the classroom full-time to go to get an

[00:02:22] MFA in writing and also a writer and have been loved to write ever since I was young and so

[00:02:28] it was actually some of the urging of my high school students who were like Rachel this is

[00:02:32] you always tell us to follow your dreams and do the thing that makes you most alive so like you

[00:02:36] used to do that I was like okay teenagers like I hear you so yeah so I left and I got my MFA

[00:02:43] in that section at Sairlands College and yeah so I'm a writer I'm a teacher I'm a future nursing

[00:02:53] student hopefully I have since left New York City under protests but ended up in Chicago

[00:03:01] Illinois where I am now a parent as well yeah so those are the broad strokes and I'm currently

[00:03:08] working on a memoir about some of the things we're talking about today and so there's a lot

[00:03:13] there's a lot there first of all what do you teach? I taught high school math for a long time

[00:03:19] okay and then I also once I graduated with MFA I was taught college writing and I do some

[00:03:24] mostly tutoring and stuff now I've been full I worked very short time

[00:03:30] as a teacher in Chicago full-time and then since then I've just been doing it like kind of

[00:03:35] you know as needed or when families have asked for support and things like that so

[00:03:41] they'll see on the writing as of late but yeah math and writing which is a strange combination

[00:03:46] but it is so yeah so as a Londoner for us it's always exciting to hear that somebody has like

[00:03:55] lived the dream and the big apple what was your experience of New York to start of interest?

[00:04:02] New York you know I feel like I'm such a fiercely strong advocate I'm Detroit my

[00:04:07] my you know original home but I definitely consider myself in New York or it's my favorite city

[00:04:14] yeah I was a beautiful place to be a teacher I got to know the city through its young people

[00:04:18] and through its fellow educators and I think that's such a beautiful and intimate way to get to

[00:04:22] know a place so yeah I lived in Brooklyn and I taught in the Bronx I taught in Brooklyn I taught

[00:04:27] in Manhattan so I taught all over the place and I was just always so amazed that all the things

[00:04:34] the city had to offer also just like how sort of in some way small town it is like I was

[00:04:42] floored when I moved to Brooklyn it was teaching out in East Brooklyn and the kids had never been

[00:04:46] to Manhattan like in my head it was like everybody just writes the train and they go everywhere and so

[00:04:50] it's also just like fascinating that there's so many different ways just like anywhere but

[00:04:55] there's so many different ways to be in New Yorker and so many different ways that the city shows

[00:04:58] that the people's lives so yeah and also I'm queer and you know coming from the Midwest there was

[00:05:05] like kind of like every town had like one or two queer communities and like so you kind of like

[00:05:09] all new and date of the same people and then I moved to New York and I made 20s and I was like oh my god

[00:05:14] there's so many gay people here this amazing so it was also just like it's just living in a city

[00:05:20] of 8 million people where there's so many opportunities and so many different lives to live no

[00:05:25] matter what your identity is it's like a profoundly beautiful thing about New York City. So you said

[00:05:31] you left New York City under protests tell us about that. Yeah so my exit from New York was

[00:05:39] nothing I ever would have envisioned one because then everyone to leave but to the reason I left

[00:05:43] because I got surprised pregnant. I had never had a cis male partner until I was 35 and I fell in love

[00:05:52] with my now husband Nick so that was like a whole journey and and also I had pretty severe endometriosis

[00:06:05] and so I was told there was like a very low chance I would actually get pregnant and because I

[00:06:10] didn't have sex with penises it was my life it was never I like never even thought about it and so then

[00:06:16] you know yeah I got pregnant very easily apparently and so because of that

[00:06:25] and also concurrently my father was very sick with multiple cirrhosis and he was getting towards

[00:06:30] that in his life so because of those two reasons we left my partner was really adamant about wanting

[00:06:39] to leave and be in your family to have the baby which you know made sense so yeah I left a really

[00:06:44] good teaching job you know once you graduate with an MFA it's pretty hard to get a full-time

[00:06:49] teaching gig unless you have a book which I did not have a book yet and so I had I had all but been

[00:06:56] guaranteed a full-time teaching job at the university I was at and so I had to leave it and that

[00:07:02] was really hard and so I ended up in Chicago five months pregnant almost all of my closest people

[00:07:07] in New York I had you know felt like I'd sort of grown up there had like almost my second adolescence

[00:07:12] in New York and just felt really rooted there and so it was really jarring to come to Chicago pregnant

[00:07:19] which was not something I chose with my that now husband which I did technically choose like

[00:07:25] I absolutely chose him but it was like such a turn in my life that I if I had control over my heart

[00:07:32] I wouldn't have chosen that path I wouldn't have chosen to be partnered with a man and so yeah

[00:07:37] like ended up in this new city with no job knocked up with my husband and it was just uh it was

[00:07:44] it was uh it was hard it was a big hard transition for me I can't imagine I was just about say

[00:07:51] I can imagine but actually I can't imagine you want me asking you questions about that because it's

[00:07:56] some it's interesting that you number one had been queer until until then and then still now but yeah

[00:08:09] okay yeah I still don't know if I was queer but I had not ever had a male partner before

[00:08:16] so and how did you meet him was it just an attractive you met him organically and you were attracted to him

[00:08:23] so um so we had met uh actually my second year in New York uh on mutual friend his undergrad friend

[00:08:30] with my grad school friend and so he lives in Baltimore at the time it was visiting New York

[00:08:35] and so we met at a party and he was like you know excited about me and I was on my way to a date

[00:08:40] with the woman that I was super excited about and um so it was like not interested but we would

[00:08:48] you know we would we would hook up sometimes we would like come and have dates a couple dates

[00:08:54] then he'd be like oh let's get together and I'd be like yeah I'm not gonna do that because it

[00:08:58] always seemed to be after I had broken up with somebody else and I was sad you would kind of pop up

[00:09:03] and it yeah and you know you know you all kind of even the little uh

[00:09:09] ellipons are I suppose if they're getting out of a breakup and so he was kind of like a fun date

[00:09:13] that I would go on but he would always ask me to date seriously and I would say that's just not

[00:09:18] what I want with my life and and so that went on for years and then um uh I guess like six years

[00:09:26] later on the same mutual friend got married and I had just ended an engagement um and so it seemed

[00:09:34] like the same pattern right like oh here's this dude that I you know mess around with when I'm sad

[00:09:40] but it was different this time I don't know why we fell in love pretty quickly I

[00:09:46] wouldn't even really know how to explain it I mean

[00:09:50] I've tried I've written I've written I just published an essay about it actually not too long ago

[00:09:54] a narratively magazine about falling in love with him but yeah so what's that you want to read it

[00:10:02] you have to say it sure yeah it's definitely well I definitely will so um so yeah it's just

[00:10:07] been a whole it's been a ride nine years now will be nine years I think and and me so we have two kids

[00:10:16] you know when you first started dating him it was so funny because you would call me and you'd be

[00:10:21] like is this normal is this what people with penises do oh yeah you guys ask me all these questions

[00:10:28] about dating guys and it was funny because you know shortly after that is when I got divorced

[00:10:35] and I started dating more women so then I would ask you questions like is it a great

[00:10:39] yes or what does this mean and it was it was so fun to like have those conversations with you

[00:10:45] yeah we totally had this issue yeah I remember when I first I would call Amber I'd call my other

[00:10:49] girlfriends and I'd be like ABC and D I'm like it's just known to like oh yeah totally normal he's

[00:10:54] actually better than most and I'm like you people put up with this I'm like what are we doing here

[00:10:58] ladies yeah so it was fun and yeah so I sort of I call it intergender dating it's been an adventure

[00:11:07] and I've learned a lot and yeah then I don't know what can you say I mean maybe inappropriate to

[00:11:17] say this but I'm so envious that the first guy that you meet is Akita and I've been through

[00:11:23] and I have hundreds yeah I mean you know I I would casually date men once I'm also that definitely

[00:11:32] have a lot of frogs but yeah it was it was pretty wild and it was so soon after my engagement ended

[00:11:37] and it was just all so surprising which is why in some way I think I trusted it because I was like

[00:11:43] this is absolutely not in the plan but it felt so compelling and so real and it happened

[00:11:49] quickly and yeah we're still well maybe there's something to say about you know if you don't expect

[00:11:58] something then it's just more likely to fall into places isn't it we put so much pressure on

[00:12:03] ourselves the things to happen then we like pick holes in something that's not absolutely perfect

[00:12:09] where it sounds like you just kind of went with the flow and things kind of fell into place

[00:12:14] yeah I mean flow is strong I was definitely resisting it for a long time but yeah I mean it was just

[00:12:20] kind of like I kept talking to friends and like I'd find like my gayest friend and be like don't you

[00:12:25] think this is awful and they're like yes they're like okay stop stressing and so yeah but you know

[00:12:32] a lot of my life has taken all these crazy turns and even teaching in New York like I had never

[00:12:38] really thought of moving to New York or being a teacher but like I was like leaving a nonprofit

[00:12:44] job that I didn't like and my friend was like what about this and I was like I don't know about

[00:12:48] that but then the more I thought about it and I'm like that's gonna be cool and so yeah like a lot

[00:12:52] of the big changes I mean things becoming a parent didn't plan on that you know and I was

[00:12:57] there had a choice if I wanted to move forward and I chose to so I did choose it but I feel like

[00:13:01] a lot of times in my life things kind of chewed me um I was gonna ask actually was there ever a question

[00:13:08] about keeping the baby or not you know that's such a good question so I I found out

[00:13:20] I was pregnant I was getting married on a Friday that can I had been legally married already but

[00:13:24] we had a big public wedding and so that Monday before the wedding I found out I was pregnant um

[00:13:30] I was like three days late in my period but you know that wasn't super abnormal but I was just like

[00:13:35] you know what let me just pee on a stick and check this off my box so I'm not stressed about this

[00:13:39] during the wedding and figuring it would just be negative and I could kind of like move on but

[00:13:44] nope it was positive um and so I found out on that Monday I was pregnant kind of like freaked out

[00:13:49] a bit that Wednesday I started spotting and cramping and I thought I was losing the baby

[00:13:54] um which was also just like it was like two days before my wedding but it was like it was clarifying

[00:14:01] like I was sad you know I was like oh I'm like sad if this doesn't happen and um you know

[00:14:08] I found out later I mean I feel like there's so much about pregnancy and births it they don't

[00:14:12] teach you but I didn't know that you're pregnant they count your weeks of pregnancy from your last

[00:14:16] period not from when you actually like conceived the baby and so in my brine I thought it was two

[00:14:22] weeks pregnant but I was actually four weeks pregnant and at four weeks pregnant a lot of people

[00:14:26] spot and bleed because it's implanting and so I just didn't know that and so if I had known that I

[00:14:30] probably wouldn't have freaked out but anyway um yeah and so I realized I was sad and also

[00:14:35] Nick and I had been talking about having kids but we were always gonna do it in the future

[00:14:40] I was 35 like I was just like well yeah but I think it was and that so I was confused but I

[00:14:47] think it was that moment where I thought the baby was gone that I was like oh I actually do want this

[00:14:52] and so I still felt conflicted throughout the whole pregnancy and was kind of scared to be

[00:14:59] apparent and wasn't sure if it's what I wanted but I don't know so I don't exactly know how to

[00:15:06] answer that question but there was definitely a moment like I didn't feel like I couldn't if I

[00:15:10] chose to determine the pregnancy I like knew that was a choice I could have but yeah and just never

[00:15:15] totally felt right for me and I just I was kind of like well at this point if I do want to be a

[00:15:22] parent it's already happening like I might as well just go with it so that's what we did and luckily

[00:15:27] Nick was excited about it and yeah so we did it and my kids almost six yeah she's almost six now

[00:15:35] oh that's so amazing god and it was its mood pregnancy and birth

[00:15:41] oh no absolutely not um pregnancy was relatively smooth um it wasn't smooth for me emotionally

[00:15:49] it was like very like I was so angsty and like nervous and kind of you know having these feelings

[00:15:54] of like why is it happening to me because you know it was also on the tail end of like

[00:16:00] we had already been toying with the idea of leaving New York but like this kind of put us over

[00:16:03] to edge and it was also like I just got married to this guy like all these huge changes were

[00:16:08] happening I was like here's this other thing that's happening that I didn't really choose

[00:16:12] yeah but I did choose you know I didn't choose but I did choose I chose to stick around

[00:16:17] so the for the marriage I posted around for the baby um but I was just feeling really resentful

[00:16:23] really about a lot of things in my life I didn't want to be in Chicago like I was feeling I mean

[00:16:28] I love to make very much but I was like still reeling from the fact that I was married to this guy

[00:16:33] and then now I'm pregnant right and so um that was really hard physically it was mostly fine I had

[00:16:40] like a few um ups and downs but it was fine but the birth itself um was actually really horrible

[00:16:48] which is another so I'm writing a memoir right now um it's been working on it for about a year

[00:16:53] now and I'm hoping to get as far as I can before I start nursing school in the fall but um which is

[00:16:58] sort of my next trick um but um I my mother had four cesarean sections and so I knew that because

[00:17:08] her hips were just really small and so I knew that was a possibility um but I also really wanted

[00:17:13] to try for a vaginal birth and um you know I did I was unemployed the time so I was doing all this

[00:17:18] research and um you know if you natural birth with a midwife you'd be able to like walk around

[00:17:25] like there's this way so that you can kind of move the body to baby through your body and so it's

[00:17:28] let's try that let's see if we can do this and so I got a doula I got a midwife um I went into

[00:17:35] labor at 39 weeks which was great because I was if any I don't know other pregnant people probably

[00:17:41] resonate with me that by that time you're like this baby out of me um so I wasn't like sitting around

[00:17:46] waiting I know a lot of people sit around waiting but no jim's came a week her name is jim's she came

[00:17:49] a week early um my water broke on its own but um anyway I've also written about this but it was a very

[00:17:59] quick um first phase of labor where you the dilation was very fast which I was really excited about

[00:18:05] and it seems like the baby was gonna come like I my water broke at noon I figured it seemed like

[00:18:10] it would be like a 12 hour birth which is pretty fast um and I started pushing at 10 o'clock but

[00:18:16] she got stuck and I pushed for seven and a half hour oh yeah which is very unusual um I

[00:18:28] I most active pushing phases like 90 minutes to sort of the average so you know smaller bigger than that

[00:18:35] but that you know yeah that's a long time um and it was horrible um I was unmedicated which was my

[00:18:43] choice and that wasn't even the hard or people were just like oh I'm a sin painful I'm like it

[00:18:47] was painful but the thing that was awful was that it was not it felt futile no I like kept trying

[00:18:54] to get her out and she wasn't coming out well you won't gas in there at least no no I wasn't

[00:19:02] um no uh and yeah it's like the pain but I think back to it now and it was like the pain

[00:19:10] it you know hurt giving birth like people are like it's you know I remember the midwives like

[00:19:14] it's magical I'm like is this magical this is actually pretty hard but um it's like very interesting

[00:19:20] but um she was stuck and nobody sort of like I knew it like I was like something not working

[00:19:25] and they kept being like no you're okay like keep going and I was like I know you're supposed to

[00:19:30] tell me that and I'm telling you this isn't working and they actually called the the obi and

[00:19:34] to check me at like 3 a.m so by then I've been pushing for like five hours and you know

[00:19:42] they could see your head her head would come out and come back it like it would be that she

[00:19:45] would crown and come back so it's there like yeah keep going keep going and it took two more hours

[00:19:49] for me to finally be like do you need help I was like yes please help so I ended up having um

[00:19:55] a four-step delivery um which is I have for people that don't know four steps are pretty much like

[00:20:00] two big salad tongs they stick in the vagina and wrap on the baby's head and then you

[00:20:04] yank it out um and this doctor was actually known for being pretty gentle with her four-step

[00:20:11] delivery but um that is not what happened with me James this cord was wrapped around her neck

[00:20:16] so once they found that they had to kind of like really get her out and so I suffered a third

[00:20:20] degree tear um which is a really deep tear it did not go all the way back to my rectum which some

[00:20:28] birthing people experienced thank god because that is like it's almost impossible to like sort of

[00:20:34] recover from that but it was close and so yeah I have this very prolonged pushing phase with

[00:20:41] horrible tear at the end and um very deep PTSD which also because of my own life history was

[00:20:52] it completely complex PTSD so yeah it was a three-year recovery um and really really hard

[00:20:59] like oh yeah yeah so so that was kind of like you know almost like the icing on the cake I was like

[00:21:08] okay now um do you mind me asking and you can say yes you do mind but was the PTSD purely from

[00:21:18] the birth itself which you're saying was associated with previous your previous history

[00:21:24] or was there an element of postnatal depression as well oh absolutely yeah I mean I

[00:21:31] I have been diagnosed I was diagnosed with depression anxiety as a teenager so it's like been

[00:21:35] a very a part of my journey just you know often off on an off medication throughout my life

[00:21:40] and things so I knew I was at a higher risk for it but there was a combination of the trauma

[00:21:45] of the birth but also just you know the sort of natural changes or her mental changes that happen

[00:21:49] in a person's body who gives a kid who births a child so um so yeah I had PTSD I had um

[00:21:57] with part of anxiety and depression I was very not well and it's like I didn't really understand

[00:22:02] until I finally got better like just how bad it was um but yeah it was it was really hard

[00:22:09] and it prevented me I luckily was able a lot of people who get post-purned depression

[00:22:15] and have a hard time like bonding with their child and their baby and things like that I

[00:22:19] luckily did not have that experience I remember feeling even at the time like feeling so bad but

[00:22:24] being like I was so grateful that none of my like anger resentment grief was like directed at my

[00:22:28] baby yeah um I was that that was not my experience which I know is not true for everyone but I was

[00:22:37] yeah I was not okay and like struggling to connect with other socially just it was really really hard

[00:22:45] and I didn't really finally get the emotional help I needed so like almost two years after

[00:22:52] the birth and then I realized like I got a medication and I felt a lot better but it was a

[00:22:56] it was a long journey and did Nick realize what you were going through and the severity of it

[00:23:04] I don't think so I mean he understood I was sad um and we talked about it before I gave birth

[00:23:10] that I was at risk for post-partum and so he like intellectually understood it but

[00:23:15] I mean one coping mechanism which has served me well and also not served me well as I'm very

[00:23:19] high functioning and very good at seeming okay when I'm not okay think a lot of

[00:23:23] um women probably not just women but a lot of women in particular can maybe identify with that it's

[00:23:29] just us having to always kind of show up right um and so yeah so I was like you know I was doing the

[00:23:37] things I was I was feeding the baby I was saying care the baby I was so it was but yeah and I would

[00:23:43] try to talk to him about it but he didn't super get it um yeah he doesn't have a history of

[00:23:51] trauma and depression anything like that so I just think a lot of men are so it's a

[00:23:55] life to be emotional mostly tuned in um so you wasn't unsupportive but he didn't really get it

[00:24:05] yeah yeah well how can you if you're not going through it yourself right but yeah I mean was

[00:24:12] there because I was fine I don't have children and I also don't have a history of um

[00:24:20] anxiety or depression or anything like that but I can still imagine having a baby and feeling like

[00:24:28] oh my god number one I feel really alone and number two I feel a bit trapped yeah

[00:24:37] absolutely I mean it's like I was reading I do a lot of reading of memoirs especially because

[00:24:42] I'm writing one but um I forgot which book it was now but they were like the

[00:24:47] the narrator was like this is the first decision like there was just no way I could undo it yeah

[00:24:52] like I had a kid you know yeah it's so definitive it's very definitive I mean I suppose you could

[00:24:58] choose to walk away from your child that's a choice some people do make or have to make but that

[00:25:04] was not something that I would be able to do so yeah definitely felt trapped and I think

[00:25:10] you know with my first kid too I have two now but um it just feels so long and I'm

[00:25:17] ever talking to Amber about it because I was really struggling and Amber was like yeah you know

[00:25:22] it's really hard and then and then they grew up and it's better you know and I believe her

[00:25:27] but like when you're in it you're just like oh my god it was really really hard and we also

[00:25:31] struggled with breastfeeding because my my kid I feel really strongly that she also was traumatized

[00:25:36] from the birth like she was very sensitive reactive baby she didn't breastfeed latch for like

[00:25:41] eight or nine weeks like it was a really hard journey for her to and even when she was older like

[00:25:47] she's six now some a couple years ago like I so my do let did take a video of like when I first met

[00:25:52] James I don't remember it I don't remember meeting my daughter um I was so just messed up but there's

[00:25:57] a video of it and um you know if you didn't know what happened it just looks like a parent meeting

[00:26:04] their kid right and so but James would see the video and she would get very upset like she would

[00:26:08] look at every other picture every the video but when she saw the video of the birth she would get

[00:26:11] really upset and it's like push the phone away like she didn't want to see it so it was just

[00:26:16] interesting and um yeah I feel like I think this is one of my lactation consultants which is

[00:26:24] like yeah babies get traumatized too and it was just really affirming to hear that because I

[00:26:28] I felt like that was true for her but I almost people were kind of like well you know what's not

[00:26:32] saying and I was like I think it's a thing but yeah she was also pretty messed up from it um yeah

[00:26:38] yeah so it was hard and we talk about it now we can talk about it now and she talks about she got stuck

[00:26:42] in mommy's vagina and how it was really hard but we worked as a team so we have like a narrative

[00:26:46] that we share about it now which I think has been helpful for both of us um but yeah

[00:26:52] that's amazing because I've never heard any parent or mother speak about sharing that kind of story

[00:26:59] with the child before I mean maybe they haven't spoken about it with the with the

[00:27:06] with people but that's really interesting to hear about that and it's you know her awareness

[00:27:12] at such a young age about that type of thing must be you know uh next to none because not

[00:27:20] that I can't imagine very many children having heard stories like that

[00:27:24] yeah well you know the baby has been through a lot in her young life um her own sort of life has

[00:27:31] been pretty protected but um there's been a lot of loss um like she's lost

[00:27:36] her friend father her uncle her cat which I know some people are like but you know it was

[00:27:40] big deal she lost her cat and then also I um after I was pregnant with James I was pregnant

[00:27:45] with her baby sister and had a miscarriage at 22 weeks um and so she knew the baby was coming

[00:27:52] and then she knew she wasn't yeah thank you and so I just I feel like because of all these

[00:28:01] losses she's been through and I just I really I'm a very verbal person my daughter is also very

[00:28:06] verbal person and I just feel like being and I'm a story I like to I'm a writer so I tell stories

[00:28:10] to make sense in my life and I feel like giving her a narrative or having her co-create a narrative

[00:28:16] with me has been really important and helpful yeah to help her get through these moments and like

[00:28:23] make sense of them and you know I feel like a lot of time

[00:28:29] parents or just grown-ups in general like want to protect kids right and and so like a lot of times

[00:28:35] people might think like not sharing things or not talking about things are not bringing apart things

[00:28:39] is like protecting them but in my experience like they know something's up right they know that

[00:28:45] people are sad or crying and I feel like yeah giving them a language to talk about it in the space

[00:28:50] to talk about it and like treating them you know age appropriate but but just like I don't know

[00:28:56] giving them a language to engage with it has been really helpful um right how old was she when

[00:29:05] she lost her baby sister would it mr yeah name is Riley um James was three and a half

[00:29:15] three she was three yeah because we found out she was gone in August of 2021 so yeah she was three

[00:29:25] did you ever find out the reason for the loss we did which a lot of people don't so in some ways

[00:29:32] that was a blessing to have a story because they said I don't remember what they called it but it's

[00:29:36] like an autopsy on the on the fetus and um they were kind of like just to repair you probably won't know

[00:29:42] you know probably just a bad egg sperm combination but she had something called Turner syndrome where

[00:29:49] the X chromosomes there there was like an extra X since this will be an XX and she had like

[00:29:54] XXXs and so it's called Turner syndrome and some babies are born with it and are very sick

[00:30:01] and and die some people grow you don't even know and you can be an adult to find out you'd have

[00:30:05] this syndrome because maybe your hormonal health is different um and a but most fetuses who have it

[00:30:12] do die but they die relatively early like first-time age or the fact that um she died so late

[00:30:18] yeah um when it's hard and it's also you know they they often tell you you know don't tell people

[00:30:25] you know second-time master because I mean a lot of people experience pregnancy loss it's a very

[00:30:31] common thing that's not talked about a lot um but you know by the time you hit 16 15 16 weeks

[00:30:39] you're feeling pretty safe so you know we told our kid we told I was showing right I had a belly

[00:30:44] a lot of times on your second pregnancy too you get bigger quicker so like it was obvious

[00:30:48] that I was pregnant and um she had a name we bought her a bunk bed like we were very much

[00:30:54] gonna welcome this baby um and so anyway so she died really late for a turner syndrome fetus um

[00:31:02] so yeah it was really it was really hard because I mean it's hard to everything everybody

[00:31:08] relates to pregnancy loss differently I think some people think of pregnant losses like they

[00:31:11] lost a pregnancy some people think of it as they lost a child um for me it felt like I lost

[00:31:16] the child just because she was a kid to us already you know and I feel like it's complicated to

[00:31:22] talk about that especially in the political landscape of abortion and all this stuff happening

[00:31:26] so I was like I tried to be careful but for me it was a huge it was very real tough right um

[00:31:34] and and so telling having to sort of deal with the loss myself and also having to explain

[00:31:41] it's my three-year-old um was a lot and you know it was also really hard for me because they had had

[00:31:47] such a emotionally difficult pregnancy with James I was just like I was so glad I'm like I chose

[00:31:54] this baby like we had planned on having the baby and I'm so overjoyed and I was like I'm gonna

[00:31:58] enjoy this pregnancy I'm gonna relax into it you know I was like I'm gonna be so like I was

[00:32:03] it and then and then that happened and it was I literally couldn't believe it I mean

[00:32:12] I have this like false sense of security because in my family nobody had had miscarriages and like

[00:32:16] you know my family was very fertile and all this stuff and I had all these stories about it

[00:32:21] and then once I told people what happened all kinds of people I had no idea I would

[00:32:26] you know I I did post about it on social media um you know as a writer I once again I feel

[00:32:33] like stories are important and um I hadn't been able to talk about it when it happened it took me

[00:32:40] a long time to be able to talk about it which is unusual for me I think you know when I'm

[00:32:44] struggling like I talk about it with all my people right and I just couldn't even speak to people

[00:32:48] for a while because it was so devastating but I so anyway I posted on social media because

[00:32:53] I was just like I know I'm not the only person who's gone through this and like so many people

[00:32:56] told me about losses like family members um friend acquaintances like people I didn't even really know

[00:33:03] like people were just so hungry to talk about it um and so yeah and you know I kind of knew

[00:33:12] something was wrong you know it was similar to my first birth with James where like I knew

[00:33:16] something was wrong and people like didn't really believe me and with Riley my second baby

[00:33:23] Jesus was really quiet like I I was like you know when you're pregnant like in the early

[00:33:27] stages like is that gas or a kick you know you can't really tell and so I kept kind of being like

[00:33:30] uh but I remember her just being so quiet and everybody was like oh it's just normal and you

[00:33:35] know it's fine you you just stress out about stuff and you think always worth kissing area

[00:33:39] like okay yeah let me just like blame my anxiety whatever but I remember being afraid and when

[00:33:44] I went in for the ultrasound I was so nervous because I thought that something was wrong I thought

[00:33:50] maybe she didn't have arms or legs like I had all these ideas about what was wrong with her but I

[00:33:54] did not think she was she was gone and so when I found out she was gone it was just devastating and

[00:34:00] all right yeah yeah and having to like you know tell my like people who I weren't close to but

[00:34:05] like I was my neighbors like you know I'm like walking around pregnant like my kids are right

[00:34:10] I had to like tell everybody oh that's that's heart-wrenching that's really really difficult so

[00:34:19] Rachel you did go on to have another child and who is now how old he's 18 months now almost 19

[00:34:29] months so I got yeah you know it's like we lost the baby and it was another moment where because

[00:34:36] like we're also like we want a second kid I don't know you know and then once we lost Riley we

[00:34:40] were like okay we definitely want a second kid but all the you know I was 39 when I lost her so you

[00:34:49] know they call them geriatric pregnancies in the US I don't know what the language is

[00:34:53] they do you know as well I don't like that so yeah so definitely don't write that right exactly so

[00:35:02] you know like the doctors some of the doctors were like oh you if you're you know I don't know

[00:35:07] because I was like is it if I try again is it likely this will happen again we're like well you're

[00:35:11] pretty old you know and I was just like wow um but it was actually the material medicine

[00:35:17] and say that again we're not so scared that it could happen again I was terrified I was absolutely

[00:35:25] terrified but I I wanted to have another kid I wanted my big kids to have a sibling she really wanted

[00:35:32] that and I grew up in a family of four kids and I just really value my sibling yeah through all our

[00:35:38] ups and downs um but yeah I was really scared but they were like if you're gonna do it you should

[00:35:45] do it soon because I guess for pregnancy loss like it's either the first three or six months

[00:35:50] it's like you're most likely to reconsome yeah so we got pregnant again very fast um but yeah

[00:35:57] the whole pregnancy I was just terrified and and I had other friends who lost pregnancies and they

[00:36:02] were kind of like well once you passed the sort of milestone that you that you lost the maybe last

[00:36:07] time it gets easier it's kind of what the narrative was and so I'm okay but it didn't really I

[00:36:12] mean it was it was better like when I because we found out we lost the baby at art and the

[00:36:16] anatomy scan where they actually used it for an hour and they show you all the parts of your baby

[00:36:20] and so that's how we found out we looked and she didn't have a heartbeat and that was also

[00:36:25] five months though wasn't it which is which is quite like say to have to wait a whole five months

[00:36:31] to then go past that milestone is that must be a pretty long five months it was a long five

[00:36:37] months and then it was a long nine months I mean I just still was so scared the whole time but I even

[00:36:41] bought like a home beetle monitor to like listen to her heart and like I was even so scared to use

[00:36:46] that that I only was finally able to use it in a therapy session with my therapist she was like

[00:36:50] let's do it together and then I did but yeah and I actually didn't I wasn't like unattached to

[00:36:57] his name is Robbie to Robbie but like it wasn't until I ended up having a plan C section because I

[00:37:02] didn't want to go through another horrible birth and it wasn't until I heard him cry that I was like

[00:37:08] I have a baby like I did not believe it until I actually heard his voice and then I was able to be

[00:37:14] like for anybody who doesn't know I don't know myself is there any test that you can do for turn

[00:37:22] at syndrome you cannot the one thing you can't test for because that was the other thing is we had

[00:37:28] done all the million tests because you know I was in my late 30s and everything came back completely

[00:37:33] normal and so that was also what was like like like ooh about it I used the sex of my baby with a

[00:37:41] boy and it can't happen in xy kids it can't happen in male-bodied kids so that was kind of like okay

[00:37:48] that's not gonna happen but yeah I mean you know trauma brain takes the logic out of a lot

[00:37:55] which it's fine humans aren't just logic beings but but yeah it was it was really scary so I

[00:38:01] feel like I never really got the sort of pregnancy that I wanted which was useful and

[00:38:07] and whatever I mean my health was great with rabbi too but it was just terrifying the whole time

[00:38:15] so you had a therapist to help you through was that to help you through the trauma of the loss

[00:38:21] that you had a Riley. I actually started the I started EMDR therapy which is like a trauma

[00:38:28] body-based trauma therapy to process James's births because I was so traumatized by that and so

[00:38:34] I was doing that work and then through that sort of realized I had complex PTSD so it was doing

[00:38:40] other things but then I was luckily seeing that therapist win I lost Riley which was brutal because

[00:38:49] she was she is very good and she was just like I know it's painful but we have to do this now

[00:38:54] we have to process this now because otherwise it's gonna start solidifying in your brain so she like

[00:39:00] you know we went right at it really quickly after I lost her so it was very very hard but I do think it

[00:39:07] was it saved my sanity. She was like we have to do this now before it starts to make connections

[00:39:14] to the other traumas that your body is carrying and makes it like that much harder to heal from

[00:39:19] so that was like very very painful to do that but also I think without that work I and without

[00:39:27] my other kid I had to take care of I don't know how long I would have stayed in bed like I wouldn't

[00:39:30] have been able to get out it was just such a profound loss I'd never ever been that sad and I

[00:39:38] had quite a bit of loss in my life so it was very yeah it was it was a lot it was a lot

[00:39:46] of minutes I've colored my third pregnancy so I mean I've it's like so interesting because

[00:39:52] I've had repetitive health issues my whole life I was told I might not be able to have kids

[00:39:57] then I do have kids but it's this whole journey and you know part of what helped me get through

[00:40:02] it has been writing I am writing a memoir about this I mean when I was going through all of these

[00:40:09] things I mean when I was going through the birth injury and healing from that which I ended up

[00:40:13] you know we talked about the emotional part of it but I also was in pelvic floor physical therapy for

[00:40:17] three and a half years like that was a whole journey but like oh when I was going through that and

[00:40:22] trying to get to a place where I felt healed in my spirit and in my body like it was just such a hard

[00:40:28] journey and there was no roadmap I had no stories to read you know I had one really amazing

[00:40:34] physical therapist who actually coordinated all my care for me but like there was just I was like

[00:40:38] looking to read about how other people had gotten through this and they were I just couldn't find

[00:40:43] anything that was talking about this in particular there's such a silence around the hard parts of

[00:40:48] pregnancy birth postpartum like there are more things now than there ever have been but like

[00:40:53] I was just that was what compelled me one of the reasons that I wanted to write a

[00:40:58] write a memoir about it because that was like there's other people that are going through this and

[00:41:02] I don't want them to feel alone I mean you know Amber's also a huge lover of books like reading

[00:41:08] just is such important it's healing right like reading other people's stories like really

[00:41:16] helps us stay in touch with our own humanity and sort of not feel alone in some of the hardest

[00:41:21] moments of our lives so yeah so I'm working on a book about that now because I don't want people

[00:41:26] to feel like that and I'm also you know I was teaching for a long time but I'm transitioning I'm actually

[00:41:32] I have some acceptance this fall I'm waiting on one more but I'm gonna go into nursing I want to work

[00:41:38] in birthwork they're going to look very work to work with other people yeah I'm just like look

[00:41:44] I've been through a lot with this I've had a lot of different experiences around pregnancy and birth

[00:41:49] and I want to walk with others on this journey like I want people to feel accompanied

[00:41:58] in however their birth and parenting journey looks to them and so yeah it's like really inspired

[00:42:05] me to go back and work in the birthfield I don't want to be the midwife of the doctor I don't

[00:42:09] want to be in charge but I want to be there so that will that involve a university studies yeah

[00:42:18] yeah depending on if it's full-time or part time it's between two and three years and I'll

[00:42:26] graduate with a master's in nursing in general general practice nursing clinical leadership there's

[00:42:34] you know there's some letters back there but basically it'll give me a master's and I wanted to

[00:42:39] do that because I would potentially I think long term I want to actually be a nurse practitioner

[00:42:45] and have my own clients at some point but it's kind of like a nice path to kind of build from there

[00:42:50] and then once you have that master it's easier to access a doctorate a lot of the schools will pay

[00:42:55] for you to kind of go on and finish your doctorate if you work for their hospital so yeah it's like

[00:43:00] feels really it's been a really rough six years for me seven years for me but it feels like writing

[00:43:09] this book and going into medicine is just like the culmination of a really hard journey and it just

[00:43:14] feels really right to be able to take these experiences and use it to serve other people

[00:43:20] and to hopefully like a difference in the field of you know medicine birthwork in particular

[00:43:28] because there's just so much as a person who was very privileged did not have a job research my

[00:43:34] butt off like did all the things I possibly could to like prepare for this birth like there's just

[00:43:41] so much that it's just not out there it's not talked about it's not I feel like

[00:43:46] women and people who have kids are just not viewed as a holistic being like I don't know it feels very

[00:43:54] like we just we birth were the vehicles the birth of babies you know and they're just like

[00:43:59] I just feel like that is just right and nothing bad happens and you pop the baby and then you get

[00:44:03] on with your life and then you get on and it's beautiful and it's sailing and that's what you're

[00:44:08] here for and that's what you do and great if you want me asking did you have any symptoms of

[00:44:16] post-atrial depression after Robbie I did yeah I did it wasn't as bad the birth itself wasn't

[00:44:24] traumatic I mean the C-section is like you know also intense but it was like not it was not scary right

[00:44:32] it was very planned so I had a much easier physical and emotional healing journey with Robbie but

[00:44:39] it was still yeah I still have a psychiatrist and they really I still had the hormonal just I mean

[00:44:44] it's like breastfeeding and birth it's just I have a very sensitive system and it's a huge I mean

[00:44:50] think about it you grow a human and then you pop them out and then you have to like not sleep and

[00:44:56] feed them and heal your body it's a lot so yeah so I definitely still had post-atrial

[00:45:02] anxiety depression but I had at that point I had been in I had a community here right I'd

[00:45:07] been in Chicago longer I had a care team I had practitioners I've been working with like I had a

[00:45:10] plan I had and because I had been through birth before and I'd been through post-atrial

[00:45:15] before because my I had the lived experience that it is in fact temporary I think I was that's

[00:45:22] like helps me also just be like this is hard it will not always be like this you know I didn't feel

[00:45:28] I didn't feel as trapped I didn't feel as like lost it was just different and a lot of that was

[00:45:35] the birth was better my care team was that was more complete and I just had the experience behind

[00:45:41] me I wasn't a first-time parent it's a big deal a huge transition being a first-time parent for sure

[00:45:47] and how long would you say the symptoms last lasted for after Robbie oh great question I mean

[00:45:56] it's also hard because you know my first kid I had pre-pandemic and then Robbie I had like

[00:46:02] the sort of intense phase of the pandemic was over but there you know it was the winter that he was

[00:46:08] very young and didn't couldn't get like any what do you call him I would honestly immune shots

[00:46:16] vaccinations any vaccinations it was like that winter where like the hospitals were overflowed with

[00:46:21] sick kids so I had a lot of anxiety up through that winter but I think part of that was was

[00:46:26] post-partum stuff a part of it was just like because it was like a really intense time to have a baby

[00:46:32] but I've stayed for about a year you know and I still over once a while we'll kind of have

[00:46:36] I think the other thing that happened with losing the baby is like you know with James a lot of

[00:46:40] the post-partum anxiety depression was like very much focused on me I like worried about her but it was like

[00:46:46] I don't remember ever being like scared of like germs and you know all that kind of stuff but then

[00:46:50] having losing a baby and then having a kid at the tail end of a pandemic like there was just

[00:46:56] a lot more fear about his well-being and so yeah I don't know it's hard to parcel that stuff out but um

[00:47:01] and what about the depression side of things because I always find this really interesting

[00:47:05] I mean part of depression is it affects your motivation right how do you look after

[00:47:13] a new baby when you're lacking motivation to even look after your well maybe maybe didn't

[00:47:20] you know if I'm not right but you know when you're motivated when you're not even motivated

[00:47:25] to do things for yourself or you know it's a struggle to get up or it's a struggle to eat

[00:47:29] is a struggle to feel happy about anything how do you keep going?

[00:47:34] I mean I feel like with Robbie I had more anxiety than depression because like I was like you know

[00:47:46] I was breastfeeding I was like so I was like I don't know I was like constantly doing stuff for him and

[00:47:50] I felt like I was on top of his stuff and even though it's awesome I felt very clear like this was

[00:47:56] the job but like with James I remember just being like so overwhelmed like getting out of bed was

[00:47:59] like awful I mean I had a partner that showed up which I'm not everybody has and I was really

[00:48:05] grateful for that um I think what saved me was that I did feel at connection with my kid with

[00:48:14] which not all parents do when they're suffering from depression and I think just like that like

[00:48:20] and I'm also like just straight up like an overachiever I'm like I'm a parent I take care of this baby

[00:48:24] this is how you do it you know there's something that I intellectualized it I think for me that I was

[00:48:28] just like I got to do a good job at this um but yeah I mean a lot of people just they it's

[00:48:35] awful you know I've heard people talk about like just wanting to leave like I just don't

[00:48:39] want to do this anymore you know like um so yeah I don't know for me it was it was community support

[00:48:45] it was my partner it was just like I just kind of had to I don't really I don't know if that

[00:48:53] answers your question but um it does I think it's a very hard a difficult feeling to articulate

[00:48:58] so I appreciate that my questions are not easy to answer but yeah I think I think that makes

[00:49:04] perfect sense what I like most about well like all of your story it's it's incredible but the fact

[00:49:11] that there are so many people who want to do something like you're thinking about studying and

[00:49:18] going back to going back to studies in the medical field and there are 101 excuses that people make

[00:49:24] when they want to make some kind of change and it's just too hard because it's either their age

[00:49:30] what they've got young kids or it's you know they're just too old for it they don't want to go back

[00:49:36] to study again there's always a reason for why you want something but you just won't make that

[00:49:44] change yet you've been through all of these things you know your previous history of trauma which

[00:49:52] you know is it is something that's obviously affected you even after your first child and then

[00:49:57] the birth itself and then your loss and then the difficulties of post-agre depression

[00:50:03] and you're still motivated to go back to university even with two little kids

[00:50:09] it's that for me is like wow that's incredible and you want to give something back

[00:50:16] you do yeah and you know what like yeah no all those things are true I'm 41 years old

[00:50:22] will be 42 this month actually um so I'm an older student I do have two kids like

[00:50:30] I just I just need I need my work to be something that

[00:50:37] and passionate about and motivates me that was teaching for a long time and I still love kids my

[00:50:44] kids um James is in kindergarten and um because I've only been working very part time this year

[00:50:49] and writing I have flexible my schedule so I'm able to go into a classroom a lot and have

[00:50:53] both the kids also all probably be pretty nonexistent the next two years so I'm trying to like

[00:50:56] show up now yeah and I love I mean I I was like nervous I wouldn't like little kids but I like

[00:51:01] them too like so I love teaching I love all that stuff I know it's no longer for me I just can't

[00:51:06] a lot of people do it and I just hats off to them but like the thought of like caring for

[00:51:11] teens and kids all day and then coming home and doing it again at my house I just I'm not built for

[00:51:15] it I can't do it um so I want

[00:51:20] I don't and I was kind of like well I don't really know what else I would do and this is just feels

[00:51:25] like such a calling I don't know how to subscribe it I'm just really passionate about it I want

[00:51:29] I want to use these experiences to help others and um I also just really like school I mean

[00:51:36] I have two masters degrees already I'm like so kind of ridiculous oh

[00:51:40] I think that's a great my writing degree and so um you know if I'm being fully transparent

[00:51:47] like I'm very comfortable as a student I'm very good at schools so I think a part of it's like

[00:51:51] great let's go do something where I feel completely competent I feel like ready like

[00:51:55] I don't question my ability to do it with like parenting writing like everything I've always

[00:52:01] it's not the most affirming jobs always so part of it is motivating me just to feel like I'm

[00:52:07] accomplishing something but I just I feel really called to do it and um I'm just really excited

[00:52:12] about the work and whenever I was actually just I had nasty cold and I was at the doctor on

[00:52:17] Friday just to make sure I didn't catch whatever bacteria I think my kids had and the doctor I had

[00:52:22] there um I had mentioned that I was going back to my school and he had gone to medical school at 41

[00:52:31] which is like an eight year journey right um and it was just so cool to talk to him and he was 65

[00:52:37] he didn't look a day over like 50 but um but yeah he was just like I did it and it's amazing

[00:52:42] and like I don't know I just keep hearing his little signposts along the way then about

[00:52:45] the right path and you know there's like a lot of my writing community it's like put you

[00:52:50] in the middle of book and you know I'm like I've done a lot of work on it and they're like

[00:52:53] and now you're gonna step away but like I really see the work as just like the same work in different

[00:52:57] form like I'm writing about these issues I think becoming a nurse and working in this field will

[00:53:03] only inform the writing to become stronger and yeah it just feels kind of like what we're doing

[00:53:09] there is something ridiculously satisfying about seeing patients I was a physiotherapist and I

[00:53:14] worked in a hospital for several years before I then did my masters in health management and

[00:53:20] then went down it's like different career path but to treat patients and actually see a change

[00:53:28] and connect with people who are quite reliant on you on your wisdom, on your knowledge, on your

[00:53:34] education is it is incredible it's hard work but it is so rewarding. I really hope that you come

[00:53:43] back on the show once you're qualified. Do you want to do it now? For two years time.

[00:53:52] Yeah right on thank you I love that and so I'm sure I can geek out about nursing as much as I

[00:53:57] geeked out about parenting and birth and all the things left out so yeah sure.

[00:54:05] Thank you Rachel this has been such an incredible journey that we've been able to share with us

[00:54:11] so thank you for sharing some really difficult very personal topics there we really appreciate it

[00:54:20] and I'm sure our listeners will really appreciate these things like as you say people don't talk about

[00:54:28] and they really should do and it's just that raising awareness and sharing the fact that not

[00:54:33] everything is as it seems on the outside you know just going into that detail that people

[00:54:42] aren't comfortable to speak about say thank you. Yeah thanks to the only thing

[00:54:46] the amber I really really enjoyed this and thank you for inviting me to be here. Thank you

[00:54:52] good to see you Rachel. You can Rachel where can our listeners find you? So I have a website

[00:54:59] with all my writing on it which is www.rachaeleparsens.com and then I also have an Instagram that I'm

[00:55:07] looking up right now because I never know what it is I'm at Rachel.e. Parsons on Instagram

[00:55:15] and yeah well that's my web presence so I'll talk to the listeners that will move

[00:55:22] by what we discussed today. Listeners you can find more from Inspiration Room Podcasts at our

[00:55:27] website inspirationroompodcast.com you can also find us on Instagram and TikTok at Inspiration

[00:55:33] Room Podcasts and as always thank you for listening.